The Next Level: Q&A with Robbie Church, Head Coach, Duke Women's Soccer

The first in a series of conversations with prominent coaches. Read on for Coach Church's views on early specialization in soccer, pluses and dealbreakers when recruiting, and much more!

Hi subscribers and prospective subscribers, I’m thrilled to bring you the following conversation with Coach Robbie Church. There are tons of nuggets and insight. Yes, the focus is on women’s soccer but his wisdom applies across the youth sports landscape. Before you dig in, a minor ask. The best way to grow Good Game is by word of mouth. So many of you have already shared this newsletter and helped build this community, so thank you. If there’s anyone else you think could benefit, please pass us along. Thank you so much for your support. ❤️

When I read that Business Insider had dubbed Robbie Church the “Ted Lasso of NCAA women’s soccer,” I assumed it was an exaggeration. Then Church picked up the phone, halfway done mowing his lawn, and the charming drawl and upbeat attitude jumped through the phone. Church really does sounds like the manager of AFC Richmond. But that’s where the similarities end.

Church is a mainstay of NCAA soccer, coaching for 42 years. This fall will mark his 23rd season as head coach of Duke women’s team. Under Church, the Blue Devils have found consistent success and are coming off their third straight quarterfinal appearance in the NCAA tournament. Before Duke, Church coached at Vanderbilt and at UNC-Charlotte on the men’s side. Simply put, Church has seen it all, both as a soccer coach and the parent of dual-sport athletes. His son, Kyle, is also a collegiate coach as an assistant for the Final Four-bound FAU men’s basketball team.

Before Church got into full Owls fan mode, he offered an array of perspective on the current state of youth soccer and its impact on the collegiate game.

Be sure to check out my takeaways at the conclusion of our conversation!

(Photo: Duke Communications)

Good Game: How has collegiate women’s soccer changed in your time at Duke?

Robbie Church: [Laughing] How long do we have to talk? That’s an interesting one because it’s changed in so many ways.  I think a lot of it is parents – and here I am, a parent about to go watch his son coach basketball – but really, the parent involvement.  And there’s been massive growth in the different leagues.  In soccer, you have ECNL (Elite Club National League) and NPL (National Premier Leagues) and regional leagues. Most of these leagues require a commitment for the whole family.  It’s not just the player commitment; it’s the travel and financial commitment. It’s increased so much over the years.  

One of the things I’m seeing is not much focus on what these kids are doing academically.  They are having tournaments that start on Thursday and end on the next Tuesday, and kids are flying all over the country. They don’t really care how much those kids and families are missing school. It used to be like that in the summer but now it’s during the school year, too.

GG: But do you want them coming from these high-level elite programs?

RC: The conference we play in – the ACC – is the best in the country. It’s equated to a student taking an AP course. Duke is obviously a school of high academics, and we have a requirement of x amount of AP classes because all we’re doing is trying to close that academic gap from high school to an elite academic university like Duke. We’ve found that kids who take AP classes that are more in depth are more equipped to make the leap.

I think the same thing happens for a player to come and play in the ACC. You want them playing at the highest level they can so the jump into the ACC won’t be as big. They need to be ready for the physicality of the sport, the intensity of the sport, the speed of play. That’s why we like to look at a lot of players who played ECNL. GA (Girl’s Academy) is another one we look at. And kids who play on national teams because they’re not only good players but playing against the highest level of competition.

GG: Isn’t there a danger of burnout, especially among these girls joining hardcore academies at 8-9 years old?

RC: It certainly is a pyramid, and you see players dropping as they get older. But it’s all about the experience. If you’re 8 years old and you have an energetic coach, a positive coach who makes it fun, so you look forward to training, that’s obviously the ideal. But if you have a coach who is always yelling at you and standing around in training sessions not moving with you, I don’t care how good they are, they’re not going to enjoy that. I know some kids just mature and naturally go on to other things. But I do think it goes back to the youth coaches to make it fun and exciting for the young ones, so they really want to be there when it’s training time.

GG: What are your thoughts on the pressure to specialize early?

RC: I’ll start by saying both of my kids played. My son, who’s the coach at FAU, walked on and played basketball at Charlotte. My daughter played soccer at UNC-Wilmington for 4 years. My son used to play AAU basketball and Select Soccer, so it was very difficult with him to do both because they both had such high demands. Basketball was a different season, but it was still always a struggle to get him out of soccer. It was less difficult for him to go from basketball to soccer. Soccer gets very engulfing in players.

I have a lot of players who want me to tell them that they can’t play high school soccer, but I don’t tell them that. They are at an age where they have to make their own decisions. I think there are some very good relationships to made in high school soccer. There are a lot of pluses to playing high school soccer. You can play a different position; you have a more responsible role; you become a leader. And there’s the high school part of it. In club soccer, you have three people and a dog watching the game. In high school, you have the social element of fans coming out for the games, especially if the team is good.

But back to your original question, there are many sports – basketball comes to mind, so does tennis and track – that are very good crossover sports. It also keeps your main sport a little fresher because you’re not doing just the same thing for 12 months. And I’m not a doctor, but I think if you’re always using the same muscles and doing the same things that could lead to some injuries.

GG: But to play at Duke, the highest level, is there a certain age where they really need to be specializing in soccer?

RC: We’ve had some that have been able to do both. We’ve had some dual-sport athletes. We had a player who also played lacrosse and another who also ran track. It’s hard because normally you have your championship mindset segment of the season and then an offseason. But here you always are in your championship portion of the season. In fall, you have soccer, in spring, it’s lacrosse. You never really have the time to work on part of your game or maybe some areas we pinpointed to you so you can improve and get on the field.

It’s hard when they do both and don’t even have time to catch a breath. I’m amazed if anyone can do it. The lacrosse girl figured it out and had a 3.5 GPA but that lifestyle isn’t for everyone.

GG: Just to be clear, you see the benefits of cross training in youth sports but that it’s more perilous once you’re at the collegiate level?

RC: Yes. Unless it’s a real passionate, they should probably be looking at only doing their main sport later in high school. I do think the high schools are doing a better job of letting kids do other sports. 6-7 years ago, I saw a lot more of kids having to be all in. They had to go to every practice and game, or they couldn’t do that. Now I see a little more give and take. Especially with secondary sports, there seems to be more of an understanding of, ‘Well, we miss her at practice, but her athleticism really helps us when she can come to games.’

GG: As you mentioned with your son, a lot of the competitive soccer clubs expect a year-round commitment for competitive teams. How, as a parent, do you navigate when the soccer club is harping on commitment but they’re only missing because they’re 9 and playing other sports in the spring? 

RC: It's very tough to navigate. As I said earlier, soccer people are engulfing. They want the kids playing soccer all the time. With our son, we had to have some conversations, like, ‘I get it, I understand it, but we want him playing basketball too because he also has a passion for basketball.’ The communication is so key.

I do think a lot of people don’t go into soccer for that reason, though. Or they just play at a recreational level where the kid plays soccer in the fall, then it’s done, and they move onto basketball and then baseball or lacrosse in the spring. I do think parents are becoming a lot more educated and look at these big clubs and think it’s just too much, not to mention the finances. So I do think there’s a lot of good players playing at a lower level.

GG: Speaking of finances, is there anything you guys are doing at the collegiate level to try and reach the kids who can’t afford to come up through the powerhouse youth clubs?

RC: Yes, and I’m glad you asked. We’re trying to make sure we’re recruiting at several different events, not just at the major showcases. We go to the big events of course because we have to, and a lot of great athletes come from those events. But we also make it a point to keep an eye open to other players from different backgrounds or maybe a great athlete who soccer has been a part of them, but they haven’t spent much time at the highest levels. We think about what they would look like had they played soccer at the highest-level the whole time. How much better would they look?

GG: What’s the hardest part of recruiting?

RC: It’s really trying to figure out when a young lady will peak. They might be 15 or 14 when we start looking at them and then we have to try and project what is going to be their top level. We’re glad they’re a good player in club or the high school level but our goal to have them be a good player at the collegiate level. There are so many players you play against and think, ‘Why weren’t you that good in the recruiting phase?’ Maybe they matured different. Maybe they played soccer more or even did other things.

Then there might a girl who’s played her whole life and she might be ahead technically and have really good skills but one of the main things we have to have in the ACC is athleticism. When you go play Florida State and North Carolina, you can’t just be a good soccer player, you have a be a good athlete.

GG: Given your experience, do you now have a good sense of when the peak will occur, and is that different by position?

RC: I think it’s different with goalkeepers. The rest of them are evaluated as soccer players athletically and skill-wise. But a goalkeeper is a good one because a think a lot of the really good ones grow up with a diverse set of playing different sports, so they also bring that hand-eye coordination that comes from playing volleyball and basketball. You can often find goalkeepers that peak later. Youth goalkeepers, there’s not that many that are top level, but then you look four years down the road, say at the All-America list, you’ll see some late bloomers. The field players, you’ll see some late bloomers too, but it’s really the goalkeepers that become great once they’re in college.

GG: How important is positional versatility when recruiting?

RC: It’s something we like a lot. If you can play a lot of positions, that’s a huge bonus. But one of the interesting things about Duke is it’s almost $80,000 a year. We won’t be as deep as a North Carolina or Florida State because of the cost. If you can find a player who plays a number of different positions, that helps you and it helps the player.

We had Christina Gibbons, who was the 5th pick in the 2017 NWSL draft. She would start at left back, then she’d go into the midfield. In same games she’d even move up front. So instead of just playing left back and then moving to the bench she was getting tons of action.

GG: How does the scholarship process work?  Do you have x number of full-ride scholarships and x number of partial rides to offer?

RC: It’s an interesting process. By the NCAA you’re allowed 14 full scholarships. Not everyone has to have the maximum number, though everyone in the ACC usually does. Most of the Power 5 schools go the max. The mid-level schools will have more range but it’s typically about 7-8 scholarships. It just depends, obviously we’d like our money to go as far as it can possibly go. Can we get a kid for less money but then they can go to Duke? Last year we had 50,000 applications for 1700 spots.

Sometimes I’ll say, we have good news and bad news. The good news is we got you in Duke, the bad news is now you owe me $80,000. Even if you give a player 70% of a college scholarship here, they still owe $20,000. If you’re talking 70% to a state university, well now they only owe a few thousand dollars.

(Photo: Duke Communications)

GG: What do you look for when recruiting a Blue Devil? What traits does ideal player have?

RC: I mentioned it earlier but number one for us is the athleticism since that’s a crucial trait playing in the ACC and some national teams in our out of conference games. And then it’s the mentality, and that’s a big word. Are you willing to fight? Do you do things to win? Do you play hard every time you step on the pitch?

I actually like to see players when their team is down several goals. Have they given up like some of their teammates, or are they fighting? I also like to see players play back-to-back because we play on a Thursday and then Sunday. You’re going to be sore, always. But can you fight through that?

And then, are you a positive energetic person? How do you get along with your teammates? The coaches? The referees? We watch player etiquette. Players don’t know but we see everything. Even to the point that if I look up and a parent is carrying the kid’s bag to the car for them, it’s not a dealbreaker but it’s not great.

And then they really need to be technically sound and have a mastery of the game. If you’re a defender, midfielder or play forward, they’ve got to have really good ball skills. That’s hard to find. The technical mastery plus the athleticism. Now these are all ideals. Sometimes we get great athletes who aren’t as technical as we need them so we work with them. And sometimes the great ball handler needs to be more athletic.

GG: What are the dealbreakers?

RC: Ohh, that’s an interesting one. A weak mentality. Someone we feel is weak mentally and doesn’t play as hard as they should. Some players that are always complaining, that are yelling at the referees, their body language isn’t great, or they yell at their teammate or back at their coach if their coach yells at them.

Not going to say her name but there’s a young lady who’s a mainstay on the national team who went to an NCAA school and won the national championship. Her mother was yelling and sure, was a little annoying but the player just went to the middle of the field, looked at her mom and yelled, ‘YOU, SHUT UP AND GO SIT IN THE STANDS.’ All I could think was if she tells her mother to shut up what is she telling her coaches. We stopped recruiting her. But believe me, it hasn’t hurt her at all. It may have just been a moment of immaturity but there was a bit of a dealbreaker in that story.

GG: And finally, Michelle Cooper recently left Duke after two seasons to declare for the NWSL draft where she was selected second overall.  How is the rise of the NWSL impacting collegiate soccer?

RC: It’s a little negative in that you don’t expect to a girl leave after two years. But the positives outweigh the negatives by a lot.  What a great opportunity for Michelle and her family. She can play soccer and make a living at soccer. It’s a signal to the growth.

Our own Lindy Brown just did an article, and we have 10 players on the opening rosters. And they’re not even at their athletic peak when they leave us. The salaries are getting better. They’re not great but they’re better than they were, and we now have a lot of pre-med students who are delaying medical school to play NWSL soccer. It’s fantastic for the ladies. It gives them something to shoot for just like playing in the NFL or NBA. Now they can work and train and know they have a destination after college. And there are many opportunities to play overseas now too. I call it a golden age of soccer. All the options they have academically in college and all the options they have to keep playing. There’s been nothing like it in the past. Hopefully they continue to grow.

But this also changes the dynamics. It’s like the NBA in the past. We don’t know now when a girl signs on to Duke whether or not she’ll leave early or even come at all.

Thanks to Coach Church for spending the time and getting into the nuances. Curious what you guys thought of our convo. Here are some of my lingering takeaways:

-       I didn’t think about the loss of academics for these high-level programs. Right now, it’s a few days of school missed which, as Church says, isn’t great. What happens when these clubs really want to compete with the rest of the world? It’s terrifying to think of inching toward the European model where kids are signed at very young age and pulled out of traditional school to train with said club’s academy. I know these clubs have improved on the educational front and are a little closer to the child actor model where a kid has a full-time tutor on set. But still, the loss of all the other elements of a childhood is a scary thought.

-       I really appreciated Church’s view of the phases in a season and how playing multiple high-level sports throughout the year doesn’t allow you to take a break from championship mode. I also appreciate how Church encourages kids to play multiple sports; I just hope coaches and clubs that run year-round programs can recognize these benefits too and allow kids to prioritize other sports. (And yeah, I love soccer, but I’m definitely looking at you here.)

-       The NWSL rise is definitely one to watch. The talent is incredible, and all the celebrity backing is going to help with marketing.

- Youth goalkeepers, play other sports!

-       I spoke with Coach Church last week right before he left for NYC to watch FAU in the Sweet Sixteen. I had no clue about Kyle when I set up the interview. But now I get tell future prospective interviews, talk to me and your kid might rise to the Final Four, too. Pretty freakin’ cool.

- Oh, and Go Owls!